Those who follow me for long enough might remember my flirtation with the Ray Bradbury Challenge, where I’d read one story, one essay, and one poem a day.
loved this, been feeling this way about movies i used to LOVE as a kid, especially usual suspects. It has - spoiler alert i guess its a movie from a long time ago - a big ass twist. And I was SO INTO IT and loved talking about it becuase it was well done. it was a good setup. But when I rewatch that movie, I feel very little. It's a setup for a fancy magic trick but there's no heart to it.
I do think stories can do both. Snatch is a movie that I think does both. But its like, the twist has to come organically, not because the writer wanted it. idk.
now i'm getting to the end of this and i feel like i have to have a twist.
I freakin love Snatch. I can watch it over and over because the characters are so good. It’s one of the few movies where nothing about it annoys me.
As someone who has written a short story with a twist at the end, I felt a bit defensive reading this at first. But my hope is that my twist was done in good taste. I’ve certainly read many others that come across as too forced and amateurish.
I think of twists as complicated guitar solos. When it's there for a reason, it's magnificent, but when it's there cause that's the band's only trick, then it becomes stale.
Interesting. Kinda like the difference between taking pictures of family and taking pics of pretty scenery. You'll go back and look at family pics, but how many times are you going to dig out your pic of a sunset?
I actually like your point, and I think it well describes why I dislike most movies and why I didn't like some books. You can tell when the character only exists to carry you to the twist and when the writer actually cared about the character.
Complete amateur right now. This is something I'm definitely going to keep in mind. The long slow road to writing something worth reading...twice...
I found the same issues in short films early on when I started renting DVDs, especially compilation DVDs of film festivals, to get a sense of how short films perform. I found that most of them are, essentially, elaborate and expensively produced jokes: the film sets up a premise, builds up an expectation around that premise, and then delivers a punchline.
The poorer ones set up the punchline you basically expect: a horror short where a person hears some sound from the basement, goes down into the basement, and then something attacks the person in the basement, roll credits; the better ones had punchlines you wouldn't: a horror short where a person hears some sound from the basement, goes down into the basement, and then finds a surprise birthday party -- but dies of a heart attack; but the best short films were entire stories.
I don't want to write off the joke structure format. I actually have an idea for a fun short film based on a strange interaction my wife and I had on the street outside a for-sale house, where this elderly couple thought we were interested in buying the house. You can get real surprise or humanity out of the structure. But in most cases it's too lazy and worth asking if the punchline shouldn't be the catalyst and mark the start, rather than the end, of the story.
I guess its a little like watching the annual Twilight Zone marathon at New Years. The first few the first times you watch it are great but by the time the forth or fifth episodes roll around you see the beginning and quickly jump to the surprise at the end in your head and then walk away in search of something more interesting like taking down the Christmas tree or doing the dishes but your husband keeps the damn thing on for the entire 24 hrs and by the end you want to hurt either the TV or the husband - but I digress. While I like a story to conclude in a satisfying way, as an avid reader I tend to expect more from them than a clever twist. Character development, small details that enliven the characters, the writer’s ability to create emotions with words, and things like these are some of my preferences. You made some good points here.
When I write a short story I think of the action scene and start my story either in the middle of or just after it. This way the reader can get a feel for who the main character is and what they must overcome right away.
Lately, I’m trying to take a more laid back approach if only to make my desire to tell a story in 100 words extend to several thousand.
There is great skill in being able to tell a story in 100 words. And a curse when trying to write longer pieces.
Storytelling is hard. At the other extreme of the formulaic twist-at-the-end, there’s the story that has no plot. Even worse, the story that has no plot and preaches a certain ideology. If you don’t get it, you’re not smart enough.
I think that the only way to learn is to write and get feedback. When I was 17 I joined a poetry cenacle frequented by a group of about 7 wildly talented young poets. This group was always on top at youth national poetry competitions. Every Saturday we would meet and read our poetry if we had written anything. The first months were feral. They tore at me with claws and teeth. They made fun of my poetry in a very direct and cruel manner. But they also gave me a lot of tips on how I can improve. At the end of the year I was a kick-ass poet and in the two years I spent there I won several poetry prizes at national level and one internationally. Three out of four were first prize. It was worth going through the boxing matches. 😅
Thanks for the tip that this was here, Oleg. I'll share it with my readers, but wow, I have it really easy. I never plot, never plan, never try to (or want to) see what's coming next. I roll off the parapet and drop into the trenches of the story, then race through it with my characters as it unfolds around us. No work, all fun.
Actually, I don't like stories that rely on some sort of twist at the end as if I'm supposed to be surprised and amazed. Nothing was as it seemed and it was all a dream or aliens or something like that.
I like stories with ambiguous endings, ones that leave me as a reader to decide for myself. Or not. Maybe just to ponder the possibilities.
I saw a movie recently that ended that way. I loved it. Did he get out? Did he not? The audience gets to internalize and make up their own mind.
loved this, been feeling this way about movies i used to LOVE as a kid, especially usual suspects. It has - spoiler alert i guess its a movie from a long time ago - a big ass twist. And I was SO INTO IT and loved talking about it becuase it was well done. it was a good setup. But when I rewatch that movie, I feel very little. It's a setup for a fancy magic trick but there's no heart to it.
I do think stories can do both. Snatch is a movie that I think does both. But its like, the twist has to come organically, not because the writer wanted it. idk.
now i'm getting to the end of this and i feel like i have to have a twist.
or is the real twist....
not to have one
I freakin love Snatch. I can watch it over and over because the characters are so good. It’s one of the few movies where nothing about it annoys me.
As someone who has written a short story with a twist at the end, I felt a bit defensive reading this at first. But my hope is that my twist was done in good taste. I’ve certainly read many others that come across as too forced and amateurish.
I think of twists as complicated guitar solos. When it's there for a reason, it's magnificent, but when it's there cause that's the band's only trick, then it becomes stale.
Interesting. Kinda like the difference between taking pictures of family and taking pics of pretty scenery. You'll go back and look at family pics, but how many times are you going to dig out your pic of a sunset?
I actually like your point, and I think it well describes why I dislike most movies and why I didn't like some books. You can tell when the character only exists to carry you to the twist and when the writer actually cared about the character.
Complete amateur right now. This is something I'm definitely going to keep in mind. The long slow road to writing something worth reading...twice...
I found the same issues in short films early on when I started renting DVDs, especially compilation DVDs of film festivals, to get a sense of how short films perform. I found that most of them are, essentially, elaborate and expensively produced jokes: the film sets up a premise, builds up an expectation around that premise, and then delivers a punchline.
The poorer ones set up the punchline you basically expect: a horror short where a person hears some sound from the basement, goes down into the basement, and then something attacks the person in the basement, roll credits; the better ones had punchlines you wouldn't: a horror short where a person hears some sound from the basement, goes down into the basement, and then finds a surprise birthday party -- but dies of a heart attack; but the best short films were entire stories.
I don't want to write off the joke structure format. I actually have an idea for a fun short film based on a strange interaction my wife and I had on the street outside a for-sale house, where this elderly couple thought we were interested in buying the house. You can get real surprise or humanity out of the structure. But in most cases it's too lazy and worth asking if the punchline shouldn't be the catalyst and mark the start, rather than the end, of the story.
I guess its a little like watching the annual Twilight Zone marathon at New Years. The first few the first times you watch it are great but by the time the forth or fifth episodes roll around you see the beginning and quickly jump to the surprise at the end in your head and then walk away in search of something more interesting like taking down the Christmas tree or doing the dishes but your husband keeps the damn thing on for the entire 24 hrs and by the end you want to hurt either the TV or the husband - but I digress. While I like a story to conclude in a satisfying way, as an avid reader I tend to expect more from them than a clever twist. Character development, small details that enliven the characters, the writer’s ability to create emotions with words, and things like these are some of my preferences. You made some good points here.
When I write a short story I think of the action scene and start my story either in the middle of or just after it. This way the reader can get a feel for who the main character is and what they must overcome right away.
Lately, I’m trying to take a more laid back approach if only to make my desire to tell a story in 100 words extend to several thousand.
There is great skill in being able to tell a story in 100 words. And a curse when trying to write longer pieces.
Storytelling is hard. At the other extreme of the formulaic twist-at-the-end, there’s the story that has no plot. Even worse, the story that has no plot and preaches a certain ideology. If you don’t get it, you’re not smart enough.
I think that the only way to learn is to write and get feedback. When I was 17 I joined a poetry cenacle frequented by a group of about 7 wildly talented young poets. This group was always on top at youth national poetry competitions. Every Saturday we would meet and read our poetry if we had written anything. The first months were feral. They tore at me with claws and teeth. They made fun of my poetry in a very direct and cruel manner. But they also gave me a lot of tips on how I can improve. At the end of the year I was a kick-ass poet and in the two years I spent there I won several poetry prizes at national level and one internationally. Three out of four were first prize. It was worth going through the boxing matches. 😅
Absolutely, improvement is only possible if you're able to receive and act on criticism no matter how harsh it is. Do you still write poetry btw?
Thanks for the tip that this was here, Oleg. I'll share it with my readers, but wow, I have it really easy. I never plot, never plan, never try to (or want to) see what's coming next. I roll off the parapet and drop into the trenches of the story, then race through it with my characters as it unfolds around us. No work, all fun.
Actually, I don't like stories that rely on some sort of twist at the end as if I'm supposed to be surprised and amazed. Nothing was as it seemed and it was all a dream or aliens or something like that.
I like stories with ambiguous endings, ones that leave me as a reader to decide for myself. Or not. Maybe just to ponder the possibilities.
I saw a movie recently that ended that way. I loved it. Did he get out? Did he not? The audience gets to internalize and make up their own mind.
Wait...Lost was all a *dream*?? 🙃